Profile 011: Dante Jones, Producer in the Music Duo, THEY
THEY is the R&B duo that you’ve probably heard but definitely should like. Their sound, an amalgamation of 90s style R&B vocals with rock, pop, and alternative styles layered in, is largely a result of the genius that is Dante Jones. Dante leads the production in the duo and his past credits (Kelly Clarkson, Priyanka Chopra, Chris Brown) and industry supporters (Timbaland) indicate that he’s someone who we all should be watching. We sat with him for a two part interview series to discuss his story, how he forges forward in the midst of a heavily populated industry, and his biggest support systems in place to make sure he stays on track.
PART ONE
So Dante, what is your role within the duo THEY?
So to make an analogy -- I always look to the past and try to find parallels -- if THEY is Guy, then I'm Teddy Riley. Or if THEY is Jodeci, then I'm DeVanté [Swing]. I'm the guy behind the scenes putting everything together. Obviously sometimes I'm at the front singing and rapping and stuff too, but it's not always about me.
So probably more like Teddy Riley to Guy, and then Drew is like Aaron Hall; crazy voice, crazy talents, crazy performer, crazy guy just out there selling what we make in the studio. But my role changes with every single song. I'm always the producer, but sometimes I'm doing most of the writing, sometimes I’m co-writer. Sometimes I sing; I always usually do backgrounds and the vocal arrangements. But 90% of the time, Drew's gonna be the better singer than me. He's just got that voice that's gonna make anything we write sound 10 times better.
So I mean, it's just like I said, with DeVonté and Jodeci where obviously DeVonté could sing, he's a genius producer, arranger, all that, but you want K-Ci and JoJo singing everything. That's what they're there for.
Let them pop off.
Exactly. And even beyond that, outside of the music, I'm the one that usually spearheads the creative vision. I run everything by Drew before we do anything, but building out the aesthetic and the brand and the videos and the treatments and all that...that's all from me.
When you were growing up, is this where you thought your life would go? How did this interest in production and creative direction develop?
I've always been a big fan of pop culture in general. Growing up, my parents both worked a lot so I had a lot of time, either just at daycare or by myself in my room, to watch a lot of TV, listen to music. I was always consuming stuff that was probably not age appropriate; I'm sitting in my room watching Child's Play, or Terminator, and stuff like that.
I used to watch VH1 documentaries, Behind the Music, all the video countdowns, One-Hit Wonders; I wasn’t just listening to music or what's on the radio, but seeing what went into everything behind it. I can even remember watching that Michael Jackson documentary where he was making “Thriller” and the behind-the-scenes of the video. Just the vision...like when he went to go see American Werewolf in Paris, and then came back and was like, “Oh, yeah, I want to find the guy who directed that and have him direct this video, because that's the vibe I want to get from the video.” Something always stuck out about that to me. I'm watching it in 1999/2000, trying to make sense of what it is. But there was always something about his perspective -- trying to create a full experience -- that always really appealed to me. I didn't at the time know what I was gonna do with music.
Nobody in my family was musical, and we didn't have any instruments in the house. But my first introduction was my brother. He lived in LA. I grew up in Denver, Colorado. My older brother, he was a basketball player and he came out to LA and played basketball at Cal Poly. Along the way he decided, “Oh, I want to be a producer.” And he wasn’t the best. (laughs) He could barely play any instruments. But he had a credit card, walked into Guitar Center, and just bought hella shit. He didn't know what he was buying, or how to put it together...anything.
So eventually, he moved back into the house when I was about 12 and brought all his equipment with him and I would see him tinkering. I always idolized him; he's an all state basketball player. He and Chauncey Billups were the two best players and all of Colorado. Chauncey obviously went on to play NBA, but my brother was first team all state with them. So I always looked up to him, I wanted to be like him. And he idolized Tupac, so he's very outgoing, outspoken, “This is where we're going to do!” big grand plans for everything.
All those different things helped mold me into somebody who wanted to make something big...something special. Even beyond making music, I want to create an experience that inspires people. That you feel from top to bottom. In a more modern sense, I’ve always loved what Kanye did with his rollouts and with his creative, and how that translated to the live show. The album that really sold me on that was Yeezus. Everything felt like it was just perfectly aligned with the music, which was this sparse, abrasiveness with this industrial feel to it. Plus the live show.
I always wanted to create something that felt like that on my own. So that's what kind of led me to figure out THEY.
How did you make your first contact in music? How did you find the first person to really help you?
So it's 2009 and I'm starting off in college. I was making a lot of progress in music and making beats. I was getting better; that whole year I went from D- level producer to like, C+ level (laughs). I got really good over the course of a year just from really not doing too much else. So my dad is like, “You know, someone was telling me that we have a cousin who's actually really making some waves in music. I haven't looked into his stuff, but maybe we should go check it out.” So he told me his name, Brian Kennedy, and I went and looked up what he worked on, and he had had like, three number ones in the past two years. He produced for Rihanna doing “Disturbia”, and for Jennifer Hudson [her 2009 album] and he did “Forever” for Chris Brown; these huge records. He was killing it at the time. I was just like, oh shit, this is crazy.
So [Brian] had a show in Kansas City, just something that he had put together. We drove up there and I burned a CD with all my best tracks on it. I met him and I got to talk to him briefly. And he's like, “Yo man, I like your vibe. I haven't even listened to your music yet, but I like your vibe. When can you come hang out with me in LA? I just need some help.” And I was like, “Well, shit, I'll come whenever.” So we made a plan for spring break. I could see his mom off in the background just being like, “Be nice to him and invite him,” so maybe he was being pushed by her. But it seemed like he did like me.
And then about two weeks later he called me. He said, “I actually listened to your tracks - you're really good, man. Especially your drums. I don't know what you're doing with your drum programming or whatever, but you got something.”
So I was like, “Oh, that's dope. I appreciate it, I'll do whatever. I can engineer-” (I could barely engineer) “I'll be your studio tech. I'll do whatever. Just let me come out. I'll carry your keyboards around…” Then spring break came and it was like some shit from the movies. He had a brand new Jag [when] he came to pick me up at LAX. It's my first time in LA. He’s showing me around. I was living the dream. We pulled up to the studio. And it is the Boom Boom Room in Burbank and there's just everybody there. At the time, Tricky Stewart was working out of there. Brian was like, “Oh yeah, I'm finishing up somebody's album. She's gonna come in and hear some stuff.” Boom: in walks Katy Perry. And I'm just like, “Oh my goodness.” It was right before “Teenage Dream.” I was losing my mind. And next up somebody else came up to see Tricky; he was friends with him. His name was Chris. And so I was like, “Oh shit, this guy seems pretty cool.” But I mean, he just seemed like a regular dude. So he's like, “Yo Brian, I want to play you some of this mixtape that I'm working on.” And he played the craziest shit. He had this Coldplay cover, and then he played this other song called “Swim Good.” And lo and behold, a year later when he dropped the mixtape, [that guy named Chris] was Frank Ocean.
So it was this real shit where I go from living in Oklahoma in college to meeting Katy Perry. I met Natasha Bedingfield, all these different artists, all the biggest writers and producers. I met James Fauntleroy for the first time there. He was the first person I ever saw just write a song. So the rest of the year I made two/three trips and I was just a fly on the wall just watching everything Brian did. Come in, set up his computer, give him sounds, work on his drums if he'd let me touch the beat, and I was just a fly on the wall. Just watching. That was my introduction into the industry, just hanging around with him.
What was the biggest turning point in your career? When did life really change for you?
I feel like I had two real breakthrough moments. Because when I started making music, I wanted to be a rapper first. I was rapping, singing, doing everything. Then I figured out I was good at production. So I'm like, let me just focus on that.
I was working with Brian, and things were picking up again. I've always been a sponge. I'm a super fast learner; I pick up all what other people do very quickly -- so I started just deconstructing all of the sessions and figuring out what he was doing and what worked, what didn't work, and trying to just apply it to myself. Eventually, I was able to figure out his sound without him having to do it. So, he started leaning on me. He'd send me an idea, and I’d send it right back to him. Or he'd send me another idea and I'd get it and he’d show it to this person and that person. And I became, almost within about a year's time, his right hand guy; we did everything together. So one day, he's working with Ester Dean who was really killing it at the time. They both came up under Polow da Don together. And Brian’s like, “Bro everybody wants to do this pop country shit. Just send me three or four of those...your type of beats that you make. Where you’re doing pop and country and a little R&B — do that for me.” I sent him four beats and he had two days with Ester.
From those two days, I got four singles. (laughs). She killed it. I had a song with Priyanka, Will.i.am., these other artists on Interscope. But the main one that really blew up was this one with Kelly Clarkson. It's her first single [Mr. Know it All]. Song goes to the top 10 and this is my first [big] thing.
At this point it’s 2011 and I'm finishing school and I moved out to LA. Within a year's time, all this shit happened. At the time, I still had the self-awareness to be like, alright, I'm good. I know I'm good, but I'm not going to apply the pressure on myself to be like, ‘Okay, now this is my time.’ I'm going to really take time to become the producer that I want to be. I don't have to worry about money for a little bit. This is gonna basically fund me for a few years so I can become the best that I can be and not have to worry about following up stuff. I'm glad that I had that self-awareness.
So, I actually signed a deal to stay under Brian, helping him out, working with him. But eventually, it's like any working relationship, I kind of felt like I outgrew the situation. So I left. All the time I've been working as a producer, I had a few songs with Chris Brown. But it didn't really go exactly the way I wanted it to go.
So I made this trip back to Colorado to go visit my family. My brother — I'm playing him new stuff — he's like, “You know, man…” -- I'm gonna say this is a big barbecue and he made this big announcement. I'm just like, “Bro, you're being way too wild right now.” -- he’s like, “Dante is as good as a songwriter and as good of a rapper as he is a producer. You need to get back into writing and stop just producing.” I'm just like, “What? What are you talking about? I’m a producer; I haven't written anything in years. Everybody's way better than me.” And he’s like, “No, you're just as good of a writer as you are a producer. Don't forget it!” And like I said, he's loud, so it’s just like, “Shut up, bro.”
Leaving Brian’s, I had to get my start again. It was almost like I had to build my profile up again because everybody knew me via that relationship. And it was a slow time; So, I'm sitting there for days on end with no sessions, nobody to write with. Eventually, what my brother said started really ringing in my head. I was just like, fuck, I don't know, maybe he's right. Maybe he's onto something. So, I started making tracks. And then I was like, you know what, I'm just gonna write to these beats myself. I'm going to do it top to bottom. And I just started writing song after song after song, just slowly but surely just getting better at it.
Within that same probably two months span, one of my friends, that I grew up with, Andrew Grant, started managing songwriters and producers. He's like, “Yo, I got this kid that I'm helping out. He’s really dope, he’s got a good voice. He's a good writer, too. I want to bring him by.” So, he comes by and his name is Drew [Love]. I'm just like, “Oh shit, yeah, he's cool.” We're both goofy, doing voices and stuff like that...so I was like, alright, cool; I can be myself with this guy. So I'm like, “Yo, let me play you something, this little stuff I've been just writing. Let me play you some of my ideas.” So, I played him one idea, and it actually ended up being the second song on our last album, “Africa.” And he was like, “Yo, this is crazy. I love this man. Can I cut this? I just feel I could take this all the way.” I’m just like, “Alright, whatever. I'm not doing shit...like whatever, bro. (laughs). Do it.” So he hopped on the song, and I just kept showing him my ideas. I’m just like, “All right, here's a new hook and here's another one. Here's another one” Next thing you know, we had six or seven of them. So Drew calls me on a Saturday night. He's like, “Yo, what if what if we just made this a project? Just you and me singing, doing this crazy stuff. Off-the-wall shit. What if we just made this just our thing and we just do it?” And I was like, “Shit, fuck it. Yeah, let's do it.” We're artists now; we're a group now.
Those are the two separate pivotal moments in my life where it's like, one, I'm good enough at production for people to actually get all my shit. Two, now I'm good enough for writing to actually turn it into something. And I've just kind of been rocking with that ever since.
Was that one of the harder parts of your career? Figuring out how to bring that energy back? What would you say is one of the hardest parts of your career?
That stage was definitely hard because I think that being underneath somebody else created a safety net. But I didn't want that, though.I wanted to be responsible for my own destiny, for my own outcomes, for everything. I want to live and die by my own actions and not have to depend on somebody else.
At the time I had just had my daughter and it was just real for me. I knew if I kept working, it would work out. But I don't know if I necessarily saw what path that was going to be. I always had a really good work ethic; I show up to the studio every day. I work on music every day. It’s just what I've done ever since I was a kid. I've been making beats in my room every day. So it's just what I do. So I knew: I will work my way through it. It was an uncertainty, but I always had faith it would work out. I just didn't know what the fuck it was going to be.
Can we dive into that a little bit more? Where did you start to develop your faith, whether it's a religious faith or just an internal faith?
At that time I was having a lot of spiritual breakthroughs as well. I was always interested in intellectual science and understanding how things were. I didn't grow up in a religious household per se. But I always believed there was something bigger at play, so I started just reading a lot more and just getting into meditation.
Even for me, growing up, I watched my mom. My mom actually passed when I was 15. She did criminal justice at first; she was a counselor and decided she didn’t want to do it anymore. She's like, “I don't like it. It’s too stressful, too emotionally taxing.I think I'm gonna switch to finance.” And I watched her; within about six years, she went from no experience, no nothing to President and CEO of one of the biggest brokerage firms in Colorado. But from that, I saw the process that went along with it.
I saw that on our dining room table every single night, she had all these different books and all these different things, and she had to get this certification and that certification. I watched as she didn't put any limitations on herself, ever. She worked every single night to become who she wanted to be. And especially as a Black woman, the pushback and the constant doubt and all the things that she had to contend with, it always really resonated with me and always stayed with me. I'm watching as a kid -- and the lens I'm seeing it through is going to be different than if I saw it as an adult -- but it's just like, if she can do that, then you can build yourself into anything. It just takes that hard work and just being deliberate about it and just always just pushing.
Everybody in my family says I'm a lot like my mom. I know that if I put my mind to something and just surround myself with the right people….and even above all that, one of the things that she always told me (she was an executive and as an executive, it was about people) -- “It's about treating people right and being a good person, which is gonna get you a lot further. Because if you're an asshole, eventually it's just gonna catch up with you. There's only a very limited amount of time that you have.”
So I think just those principles of who I was, accompanied with just being more receptive, a free-flowing state just from my own self-development. Even with the years past, everything that we've been through, all the ups and downs and stuff like that, I can't get rocked by what's happening right now. I know that I can get through whatever. I've been through a lot. My mom passed when I was when I was 15. She passed from brain cancer. It got really ugly at the end. I went through everything else that I had to go through to get to this point, it's just like what’s going to stop me?
I idolize my mom, just everything that she's able to accomplish and just who she was. I'm starting to find new parallels between the two of us. My dad, once a year, he'll send me out a box of her stuff that he's had in storage or whatever. Like I said, I'm into reading and self -improvement. One thing he sent me was her box of tapes. She had something like “How to Unlock This Part of Yourself” and all these different seminars and self-help. I'm just like, damn, I didn't even know she's into all this shit. It’s the same shit that I’m into. It's crazy.
PART TWO
As you’re garnering self-awareness, does that allow for you to walk into the work a bit differently? Are you able to become more vulnerable or put more of yourself into your work with that level of self awareness? How does it impact your work?
It depends on the book. For me, there's been a few that have really been good for me. One was Talent Is Overrated. It's about the sculpting of the talent, as opposed to just being the best and having natural ability. So when it comes to production, I'm always looking for new ways of doing things and new techniques, new inspiration -- to keep sharpening the sword a little bit to where I'm not just doing the same shit.
I'm big into meditation. I was a very, very early adopter of Headspace the app. I’ve been using it since 2014. There's this course on creativity. And basically, it's a visualization exercise where you're imagining that there's a spark or a ray of sunlight within you. And basically, it's just about placing it in different parts of your body. And I think that, in a broader sense, it's saying whenever that spark is, it's always there. But sometimes certain things, whether it's just the outside influences or other people's opinions or your own desires, can hide the spark when you're trying to come up with something. So it’s about doing those things that help you find whatever that spark is.
So for me, one thing that I hate, especially when I’m writing for other people, it's just like, oh, what would this other person want? Is this guy gonna like this? I can't do this because this is too this or this is too that….for me, those thoughts and that process dim my spark. I don't allow those thoughts or even that energy around me when I'm working on something. People be like, “Let's come in and do this for this person because this A&R said they want this.” I'm just like, “I won't do that.”
I can't create from that headspace because it dims what I know innately. I just gotta let it flow, let it come out, and then just do whatever I think is tight. If it ends up working for this, cool; if it doesn't, then cool. But it's about staying present and having that ability to block out the noise. And not thinking oh, is this gonna work on this playlist? That’s the new thing, ever since 2018. “Is this gonna work on rap caviar”... I don't care about the algorithm. At the end of the day, people dictate what they want. So you got to try different shit, you got to shoot shots, you got to do things, and take risks. And that's always my principle. I
I don't care what anybody else wants. I'm just going to do me. It's not always going to hit for everybody, but as long as I like it and I'm cool with it, that's all that matters.
I've always been okay with failing.
When you have those moments where maybe it doesn't hit the way you want, who do you turn to for advice?
My girl, Amanda, who I actually named the mixtape for [The Amanda Tapes, due out this fall]. We've been together since I was 19. She comes from a very different background than me and she's got a great ability to just not let things really affect her like that. She's got just great emotional intelligence about everything. Especially when it comes to my music.
I feel like everything else, I'm very stoic. I don't get too upset. But when it comes to my music, that's the one place where I can be a little vulnerable, where maybe some other people's opinions after it's out, are like, “Oh, that sucked.” Nobody wants to hear that, but she always just gives me that perspective and that support that I need: “Don't let it get to you.” She has this way of always breaking it down into a very simple perspective: “This is 1.1% of your journey. Just keep it pushing, just keep going.” And I think that the fact that I've had her through all this, through every part of this journey, has been a real big blessing for me. BecauseI know that I can always count on her to give me the perspective I need on whatever I'm going through. I'm definitely grateful for her for sure.
When was the first time that you saw yourself? You've had these two really pivotal moments in your career, also with the Kelly Clarkson song. Did you have a moment where you were sitting down and you just see the extent of you and your ability?
I think when I'm on stage. And I see these songs that, especially for me, we put these hours into, and all just the mixing and the mastering and everything that went into it. When I see it really resonate with people, that's when I feel like damn, I made something special.
We did this show in Portugal last year and I had never been to Portugal. I didn't know anything about it, and I had no expectations going into the show. But we put this song “Thrive,” out and I swear to God, you would have swore we were at the World Cup. And they just couldn't possibly have known the song. It only has a million plays total, but I think it was just the raw energy and the simplicity of the song that people just felt in this huge crowd. And they were singing it back and chanting it. It was like a movie. That was one of those moments where I was just like, damn, I made something special. This isn't a big song. It's just an energetic thing with hardass 808s and a simple ass hook, but it's just crossing these boundaries and resonating in a way that I never probably could have ever imagined.
So, those are the times when I really feel the electricity around. Everything else is just incremental steps towards achieving something, but all that stuff melts away when I'm on stage. That's really the best time. So now it's kind of crazy, in these COVID times, it's going to be a while before we get to see a lot of that shit again.
When have you felt seen in your industry? When was the first time that you felt seen or has it happened yet in the way that you want it to?
Timbaland has been one person. He heard our stuff when it was a bunch of rough demos. It hadn’t been mixed; there was still a second verse with no lyrics and stuff on it. But when he heard it, he was like, “I need to work with these guys.” And he flew me out. And he just had all the praise in the world. He knew the names of songs; he’s singing lyrics back to us. I'm like, “Yo, how do you know this?” It was surreal. And that was the first couple times that we worked with him. It was just like damn, Timbaland fucks with me.
I actually have a story that leads to this answer. We were with Warner Records for a while. But what we signed up for and then what it was a year and a half later was just two completely different worlds. We signed up for one regime with a certain dynamic and six months after our album came out, there wasn't a single person that we signed up with at the label anymore. So it was always this process of just trying to win people over and get people involved and get people excited and get incentivized. It ended up just not being the best situation for us. And so last year, we made the decision that like okay, cool, maybe we should try to leave the label and find a new situation.
And it was pretty painless, honestly, trying to leave Warner. There's that part of you that’s like damn, y'all didn't fight to try to keep us either? You can't help but internalize that. So I had this day where basically I got a call from my attorney that this was happening and then I got some bad feedback on some songs...I was just in a whack place. I was just like, fuck this shit. I might just go into finance or something. I'm gonna go into banking. I'm sitting there with my friend just like venting, like I'm out. I’m done making music.
So then I had another friend who works closely with Timbaland. And he hit me like, “Yo, Timb's in town. He wants to see you.” And I'm just like, “Bruh, this isn’t gonna happen.” I'm just being a cynic. He's like, “No, bro. Come to the studio right now. He wants to see you.” So, I was just like, alright, fuck it. I'll go over there. I have zero self-esteem today out of all days.
And so, l pull up. And [Timbaland]’s just so excited to see me. There was a room full of 10 producers and he's just like, “Guys, guys! Dante. He's the one. He's the one. He's got it. He’s above water. When’s the album coming out?” And I'm just like, “There ain’t no album coming out for awhile.” And he’s like, “What? Play it for me.” I was just like, “Bro, I don't wanna play this album right now.” And he’s like, “Nah, play it.” So. I play it for him. And he's just like, “Man, Dante. You got it, bro. Just don't worry about that situation. They're wrong. You got it, man. I'm just saying this. You got it. Keep going.” I'm just like, well if this guy believes in me, I better just get back to work. You know? If Timb was gonna go out of his way to do all this, let me figure this out.
So eventually, we moved over to Island/Avant Garden and got it all set up. The same songs that previously “didn’t meet expectations” are now getting a response and people love them. It just gave me that faith to be like let me just keep going. It's just funny how the Universe can just put things in place for you. Because I literally went in there on E, with zero confidence and then just came out of it renewed. So if he believes in me, then what else do I need?
That's it. And I think that for me, that's the benefit of feeling seen. I think my last question for you is what legacy are you building or do you want to leave behind with your work?
One other thing I haven't even touched on is that I'm a history buff. I've always been into history. I love to read about history, music history, the history of mankind; my favorite book is Sapiens. We got this finite amount of time on Earth. What mark do we leave, if we leave any mark at all? For me, I've always felt like I had a bigger purpose to do something different and be the one to try to introduce new ideas and new perspectives. I feel like we did that with our first project where I think people were just blown away. It was like, “You put guitars on drums, guitars on 808s? How did you do that? And you're singing over it? What the hell is this?”
Now, here we are - 2020 and that’s the norm. But that's what I wanted it to be. I wanted to be one of the guys who introduced that dynamic of trying something different. And with this new project, it's the same intention. It's just kind of a slightly different form. It's more of like, alright, cool, how do I channel that energy of what I did? What I grew up listening to in the late 90s, early 2000s. How do I channel that into something that's equally as fresh as putting guitars on 808s? How do I achieve that feeling? The intent’s the same.
I want to be one of those people that inspires people to try something different. That executed a lot of stuff at a good level, that introduced new ideas that really just help create certain shifts in music. I know that from all the work and all the talent that I have, that Drew has, that we have collectively, that it is not just an idea where it's just like, oh, that could be cool if it was done better. It's just like, no, this is it.
One of my favorite creatives in general has always been Quentin Tarantino. For him, it's hard to quantify what type of movie he makes. Because it's a little bit of everything. There's some comedy, there's some action and violence, there's drama, there's suspense. It’s literally just everything that he's into, that he liked growing up, and all crammed into one stylistic movie. [What we do] feels like Quentin Tarantino; you can't really quantify this as anything else. And I think that for me, I almost want to be like that. I don't want to be the most prolific. I don't think I'll be the fucking Michael Jackson of my generation or anything like that, but if I can be the musical Tarantino that has his own style that really changed the way that people looked at music or how music can be made or the limitations that people try to put on music -- then that's my role. That's the role of THEY — just to be the people that take everything that everybody liked, put it together in a new fresh way, and inspire everybody else to try to make something like that. And I think that's ultimately what I want a role to be.
I feel like in Black music we're at this point where it's just like technology is the great equalizer so now we have everybody working on our shit and making our music. But I think it's important for us to really just exert a certain energy. It's like, nah, this is our shit. We're the best at it. That's why I always love 90s R&B because I feel like that was the first time where the Black musician had the best command of the technology. We knew how to get our drums hitting the hardest. Didn't nobody's drums hit like Diddy’s drums. Nobody could arrange like Teddy Riley. We were the biggest innovators and I think it's important that we continue to be that. We're the ones who continue to really, really push things and have the best command of the tools.
Nobody was sampling like we were. Nobody was putting it together [like we were]. I'm the biggest 80s R&B fan there is. I love Cameo and The Gap Band and stuff like that, but their stuff wasn't mixed as well as a lot of the other records at the time. They were still figuring it out. Whereas in the 90s, it was like no, we know how to get it to 100% now. We know how to put the shit. This is big production shit and it's all Black top to bottom.
It's not just expressing yourself; it’s really doing it well.