Profile 008: Terrence “Punch” Henderson, President of Top Dawg Entertainment
Terrance “Punch” Henderson is an artist in his own right. President of Top Dawg Entertainment, the label and management company behind Kendrick Lamar, SZA, SchoolBoy Q, SiR, Jay Rock, and more, Punch navigates the worlds of business and creativity. His own artistry has manifested in a series of Soundcloud releases that showcase his storytelling abilities; a debut album yet to come paints a picture of his journey to date. As we wait for that, we caught up with Punch to understand key moments that have shaped him into who he is today.
So, Terrence - where'd you get the name Punch from?
It’s a long story. I’m really a nice guy though, I promise. It’s just a family nickname, my father’s been calling me that since I was born. It comes from...see, I used to look like this old man that lived in his neighborhood. Because when I came out, my skin was real pale. I was light, real light. I guess the guy's name was Mr. Punch.
So it would be Punch, or my father would call me Punchino. They call me that more than they call me my name.
So what do you do professionally? How would you describe it?
Well, technically, I’m the President of a record company [Top Dawg Entertainment], a manager, and I guess an artist, at this point. All in all though, when you strip everything down to the bare minimum, it’s teaching.
So that's what I would go with, just teacher.
Interesting. Elaborate on that?
It’s all about absorbing information and passing information on to somebody else. Teaching them; and they pass it on in turn, or they can give it back to you with an understanding that they didn't have before. That's where I get all the gratification from. That's why I don’t really trip on being an artist or not, because at the end of the day it’s all teaching for me.
So then if you're teaching them, where are you learning?
I learn from the world, everyday life, anything. If something piques my interest, I go all the way in. And going all the way into that, I'll find something else, and then I go that way. You know how research goes. Just keep on going, you don't stop. So I'm pretty good at trivial matters.
As a manager, do you have certain aspects of the job that you love more than others?
My favorite part is just watching somebody learn and absorb some information. It's like a light bulb, you can see it go off. And it's something that they didn't know before, or didn't think about it that way. That's another thing I like to do, is give people a different perspective on something that they’ve known their whole life. Just to think about it differently. Because really, that’s what it is at the end of the day; nothing is new. It's just how you process it and how you think about it. So that's ultimately the favorite part - seeing somebody gain some sort of enlightenment. Is that too esoteric?
No, not at all. I think that's real. How has your professional role evolved over the course of your career?
It evolves as I learn more. It changes because my perspective changes all the time. So for example, I always say when dealing with a female artist, I’ve got to know about makeup and hair care products and all this type of stuff - like you can't put alcohol on your edges.
[Laughs] You just found that out? Did that change the game?
It’s crazy. It kind of switched it up a bit [laughs]. You guys got it rough!
But it's just that - when you learn different things, you grow as a person, as a professional, whatever you do.
And in what ways has work forced you to grow personally?
I think I've learned to listen more and be more conscious of other people's thoughts and ideas, even if I don't agree. Even if I know something is right, but somebody who's wrong is passionate, I learned to just sit back and listen. Because people learn differently. I can't force my thoughts and ideas onto somebody who's not receptive at the time. So I've learned to sit back and listen, and let them go through whatever trials and experiences, and try to guide as best as possible without force.
How do you cultivate that level of patience, to even sit there and engage in those conversations?
I think patience comes from understanding. When you understand something more, there are different ways to deal with it. Like, if we have opposing views, I can look at you right away and get defensive and say, “Oh, she's this and that, she doesn't get it.” But if I react in that way, I’m not taking the time to consider your background, where you come from, who your parents were, what you were taught, how you were raised, or any of that. And all that plays a factor in how you retain information and how you learn.
So patience just comes from understanding who you're dealing with.
Where in your life did you see that first?
My father. He's the most patient person ever. I've never seen that sort of patience. He takes his time with everybody, is always pleasant, slow to speak. Then when he speaks, it’s impactful. But then my mom's total opposite. She goes in like hot blood. So I think I got a balance there. Because they’re polar opposites in personality.
One thing with my son is I always wanted to give him freedom to think and explore without forcing these ideas and traditions on him. Because to me, people just follow traditions that their family has always done, even if it's not “correct.” That's a “correct” with air quotes, because all relative. But I’d just like to give him an opportunity. So even when he messes up, I guide him, but I try not to be too hard on him
So it's a life philosophy as opposed to just a work philosophy.
Of course. That's the whole thing, like I don't even look at my job and what I do professionally as work. It’s really just breathing, it’s a way of life.
And how did you get to this place, professionally. When did you start?
Technically in 2004; I’d say when we started getting attention outside of the neighborhood. But I guess I go back to maybe 2002. I was trying to start a record company on my own. I found out quick that you needed a few dollars. My IKEA salary wasn't cutting it at the time [laughs]. I was 20, 21 maybe.
But then in 2004, I got with Top [Anthony "Top Dawg" Tiffith], who is of course my cousin. And we started everything from there.
We talked before about high school and how who you were then helped who you are now. What were those, on record?
I have this belief that who you are as an adult is who you were in high school, for the most part. Like, I come from a sports background. So I'm used to dealing with public perception, a small level of fame, how to handle different people, different personalities. So that translated right into the music business. Because really it’s the same philosophies of day to day managing people, managing personalities.
So as I look back as an adult, then it’s like, “Oh, okay, this is why I do this this way, because of a certain experience I went through.” But it all started really relating to sports. My father played sports, all my uncles played sports. And my father was a coach at one point. So everything was sports metaphors. I mean, like, if you're in a tough spot, you say it’s “Third-And-Long.” You got to figure out what you're going to do; you gonna go to your receiver on the street, or are you going to run the ball? So I always thought about things in that aspect. But then, when you’re dealing with a team and sports, you got to know your personnel. Same as when you're dealing with artists. You got to know who’s gonna fold under what type of pressure, who will take criticism and fuel it for something positive, or who will go the opposite way, right? You got to know all these things. And that comes from playing sports.
Is that where you first became a strategist then?
Hmmm….no. I first became a strategist when I was a little kid. I used to draw a lot. And all my cousins and uncles and aunties would come over the house and they’d be talking with my parents, having real grown folks conversations. They’d always tell the kids to get out of the room, so I figured out how to be real quiet, go in the corner and look like I'm drawing and not paying attention, and just absorb all the grown folk stuff.
What other moments like that, looking back over your life, kind of defined you? Because you're, what, 37 now?
I’m 36 and a kilo [laughs]. It's a few moments. For one, I grew up in the Nickerson Gardens projects, and it was a different way to grow up. It was a fun way to grow up as well, because you don't recognize the dangers and the negativity that everybody talks about. You don't view that because that's everyday life. I always give the example of playing in the sandbox is a little bitty kid jumping over dirty syringes, bullet shells, casings, all in the sandbox while we were playing. Or running in a vacant project unit where the dope fiends were at, where they set up shop to get high or do whatever all day. I would go in there, mess with them, then run out.
Now viewing that, that was super dangerous. It's not cool, and I can’t imagine my son doing that. But that was so fun to us as kids. So when we moved out, it was a complete culture shock because I didn't know anything outside of those projects. To even see different nationalities - like, it was only Blacks and Mexicans. Those are the only two nationalities you dealt with unless the police came through, which were usually white males. So that was a complete culture shock.
So you move out of the projects - and you’re around white people. Is it a different type of experience?
Absolutely. Super different. Because you just didn't know...
I'll give you another example. My little cousin had come and moved in with us for a while; she couldn't have been no more than about six at the time. So she came to stay with us; she was in the projects, too. We were staying in Lakewood, California. So, she comes over there for a few days and she's like, “I want to go back home.” I’m like, “Why, what’s going on?” She’s like, “There’s too many Mexicans over here.” But...there were no Mexican people at Lakewood; it was all white people. So she didn't even process that this was a completely different nationality. She just processed the skin tone, because that's all she saw. Up until that point, that’s all that resonated with her.
So that's the type of thing you just don't know until you actually get out and see other things.
What else as far as looking back contributed to who you are, or that you even use now?
Man, it’s so much, because there's so many stages and different periods in my life that switched things. With that move from the projects...so out of the projects was super dramatic for me. Because at the same time, my grandmother had passed. And I was super close to her; I was the first grandchild. So I was like, super spoiled. But when she passed and we had the move out of the projects, my everything was just shifting.
I was about 11. I kind of shut down at that point, became more so internal as opposed to being an outgoing kid. I was way more outgoing up until that point, then it switched to just holding everything inside. That's probably the biggest shift. For sure.
Did you have any shifts in your 20s? Maybe countering that childhood experience?
I think from that point on, I was kind of just floating up until 25.
At 25, I realized what confidence really was. It’s knowing that nobody else can do what you do. No other person can bring whatever it is you bring to the table.
I came to that realization at 25 years old. We were in a studio alot and just working and working. I'll be writing and doing my little stuff. And I would listen to like, Kendrick [Lamar] and [Ab] Soul rapping. And I was like, “This is incredible. How do you even say these things or put these rhythms together?” And then it just hit me at that moment like, yo...that's dope, but what I'm doing is completely different. Because I'm a completely different person, I have a completely different perspective. And it can't be compared to anything else, if I'm honest and true to what I'm doing. And that just changed everything, from making music to walking into a meeting - the confidence at an all time high. It’s been that way since that point.
Some people don't like when I use this word, but I think that that's some level of vulnerability, too - being honest enough to know for sure who you are.
Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. Because we’re not taught to be honest on that level. That’s a deep level of honesty. And we're taught to mask that, because it's a sign of weakness. You don't want to show any vulnerability because you appear to be weak. And weak is the complete opposite of masculinity. So yeah, we mask that for sure. Like, you get hurt? Just shake it off, as opposed to seeing if you’re really okay.
And that's something that's instilled, that’s another tradition that we follow; to be hyper masculine. The more masculine you are, the better a man you are. But that didn't necessarily come from my father and his direct teachings. It just came from my environment as a whole.
And it usually comes from -- I’m gonna generalize -- but it usually comes from the guys who grew up without a father. Which is ill; because they’re getting lessons from a woman or the grandmother, who don't know how to be men; so they give [their sons] information based on their perception. Which is, “Don’t act like a girl.” And when you link those things, a woman will be considered, you know, feminine or weak, so to speak. And men are supposed to be the opposite of that. So void the emotion.
It’s deep.
How do you go into a meeting and still be vulnerable? Or how do you enter a studio?
My thinking is I have the product. I own the product that they want to sell. So if I don’t understand something, I have no problem saying, ‘I don’t understand what you're saying. What do you mean?’ Or, ‘I missed it; I don't get it.’ And you got to sit there and keep explaining until I get it. Because if you don't, nothing moves because I still have the product. So it's just being self aware on a hyper level at this point.
I mean, we create. So we have all the power even though the structure and the system is set up differently, we still have the power and we can change everything.
That’s real. When was the first time you personally felt seen in your industry? What does that mean to you?
I say early on we were trying to roll out J Rock. I would be dealing with a lot of different people, publications, a bunch of press people, and different outlets. And the way they responded to me let me know that they had a certain level of respect or admiration for how I was dealing with them. So I guess that's probably the first time. Really, when we started coming out to New York and doing all the outlets all day back to back to back to back. It was 07, maybe 06.
How were people responding? What did that look like?
Well, for one, with the background, I come from Watts. People are familiar with Watts, the projects, so they get this certain idea of who they think you are. And this is my whole team. So they got a perception of who they felt we are. So when I walk in the room and totally disarm them by being respectful, warm, receiving, the whole thing, you completely change their idea and make them relax, make them comfortable. Like I said, I'm hyper self aware; I know my presence. Physically I’m a big dude, so there are a lot of intimidation factors right off the top before anything is said, just based on physicality and perception. So when they see something that's different from that, they can relax. And it makes them comfortable. It makes them want to deal with me.
And that was in New York, okay. Is this why you love New York so much?
I love New York.
Because when you think about it, you can get so much done here. It was a complete shift from how I was working in LA. In LA everything so spread apart. You could probably do two meetings, maybe. Cause you’re driving from Hollywood, you got to go to Burbank, or Santa Monica, and stuff is far. But in New York, you just hop in a cab and hit the next building or hit all the floors in one building. You cover so much ground. So that's really well I fell in love with New York, you can get so much done easily.
Who or what inspires you? And how do you stay inspired?
Inspiration comes in spurts from my experience. I don't think it's a constant thing.
So once inspiration hits, you gotta ride it all the way out. But what inspires me is just life, stories, words, the atmosphere, textures, how a building looks, landmarks - but not the traditional landmarks - like, hood landmarks. You know, like when somebody mentions a certain bodega they go to in a song and I hear it and happen to drive by and see it, that’s inspiration to me. And that’s all over to all over the country. I know it’s broad, but just life. The actual pulse of life, heartbeats, all that stuff inspire me.
Who do you turn to for advice?
I guess it's really three people at this point. Which is my father, first and foremost. Top, which you know, that's business and personal. And then as of late, Jay Z. But I'm not the type of person who calls somebody and says, ‘Hey, I need some advice.’ The advice usually happens in the course of a conversation where I didn’t even ask or say anything. But what I'm thinking about is spoken on, and what they say gives me a different perspective from how I was thinking.
I don't know if that's one of those traditions again or a pride thing. But I feel like I know the answer already, and somebody else saying something is just confirmation of what I was already feeling and thinking. So I've never been one to say, “Hey, I need some advice.” It's always felt like I knew the answer. I don't know if that comes across as arrogant or whatever. But it’s just honest.
Because I think you got it for the most part. You know what it is. Even when you ask and say, “I need some advice,” you already know something needs to change, because you’re asking for advice. Something's not sitting well, it's uncomfortable. So you know what change needs to be made. That's the start. And then just talking, you figure it out through the course of that conversation. So I agree with that.
Where do you see the industry going for creatives of color? For Black folks, brown folks?
I think we’re gonna get more ownership at this point. Because the whole landscape is changing and it's opening the door for us to own what we create. Like, it's never been
this many black millionaires at one time. And not just black people, just creatives in general, all creatives get robbed - most of them. Especially us. Like the whole world. Everything is seen through the eyes of artists. I think about music like, on the west coast we didn't know what was going on across the world until you hear the Ghetto Boys, forget what's going on in Houston. You hear whatever artists from over here, they tell you about their neighborhood and you resonate and are picking up certain things because you're going through the same stuff. That's art, to me. So we move everything, we’re the post of everything, but it's time to really start owning where we create.
What kind of legacy do you want to leave?
A legacy of, “He made me think about something.” That’s the whole thing. I just want to support some sort of idea in conversation where somebody is thinking about something.
Because the more you think, the more ideas come from it, the more inspiration the more everything turns. So if I could inspire somebody, that's good enough for me.
Do you see that as a power position?
Absolutely. I don’t know if it’s power per se, but it's more so self gratification for me. Like what we spoke about earlier, there’s no better feeling to meet and somebody learning something based on something that I told him, or perspective that I gave them. That’s the best feeling. So at the end of the day when you strip everything down, everybody wants to be loved and give love. So being accepted is a form of love. If I taught you something, I feel like you accept me, as a person. And that's a form of love. So it all goes back to those key points.
So it’s all about love.
Absolutely. For sure. I say God is love, we remain God’s image. So if you think about it in those terms like I said, love, and give love. Everything else falls under that.
That’s real. Unless you don't know how to love.
I think love is innate in us, but life gets in the way. Once life gets in the way, you got to reprogram, restructure how you think, then at that point, you’ll get it back. I don’t think it leaves, I think it’s just suppressed and locked away based on whatever happened in your lifetime. I don’t think it goes anywhere.
That’s real. Alright, I’m closing out - any final words?
Shout out to the Mexican homies.